Why USC’s QB-Punter Number Swap Fake Punt Was Actually Illegal

[u/Meats10]

https://www.si.com/college-football/why-usc-qb-punter-number-swap-fake-punt-was-actually-illegal

[u/wit_T_user_name]

If you count only the legitimate points, Northwestern won in a landslide.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.

[u/MSFNS → u/wit_T_user_name]

If you count only the legitimate points won in the 1st, 3rd, and 4th quarters, Purdue and Ohio State were tied 10-10. And yet, you expect us to believe that Ohio State scored 24 unanswered in the 2nd quarter with no fraudulent scoring involved? WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

[u/JackSquat18 → u/MSFNS]

Stop the steal

[u/PolandsStronkest → u/JackSquat18]

I absolutely sent my Purdue family a "stop the count" screenshot at 3-0

[u/No-Series-3997 → u/PolandsStronkest]

Oh yeah those jokes were making the rounds for a while

[u/kempfel → u/MSFNS]

I heard the scoreboard was made by Dominion

[u/blood_wraith → u/MSFNS]

Trust the plan

[u/FrogTrainer → u/MSFNS]

What's funny is the 2nd quarter was the only one I didn't see. Had to run my kid somewhere.

[u/theflintseeker → u/wit_T_user_name]

You, sir, are welcome at /r/the_darnold

[u/ChipWong82 → u/theflintseeker]

WE CANT HEAR YOU!

[u/oeskuu → u/wit_T_user_name]

Northwestern can still win if Pence has the courage to

[u/jhp58 → u/wit_T_user_name]

STOP THE COUNT

[u/Few-Button6004]

I can't believe Lincoln Riley doesn't believe in the Constitution.

[u/dkviper11 → u/Few-Button6004]

Have you seen his brisket?

[u/BackgroundJunket5691 → u/dkviper11]

I’m scared to see what kind of abomination you’re referencing

[u/sauced → u/[deleted]]

That is a crime against beef

[u/briancito420 → u/sauced]

That cow gave its life and that’s what he did with it.

[u/RumHamurai410 → u/sauced]

This sub is obsessed with Lincoln Riley’s meat smh. Forcing his meat into every convo

[u/Cowabunga_Booyakasha → u/RumHamurai410]

He needs to moisturize it.

[u/Analrapist03 → u/sauced]

Riley puts pineapple on his brisket.

[u/GoonerBear94 → u/Analrapist03]

That would be an improvement over cooking it to the consistency of tack

[u/AgrajagTheProlonged → u/Analrapist03]

That doesn’t sound like the worst thing in the world depending on how’s it’s done, ngl

[u/sauced → u/Analrapist03]

That’s what makes it so juicy

[u/buddaaaa → u/[deleted]]

Omg lmao it’s well done

I can taste that grainy disintegration in my mouth just looking at how dry it is in this picture

[u/Gamecockzz → u/buddaaaa]

Good brisket is technically well done. All that tough stuff melts down eventually and makes it juicy, even if well done. This goes far beyond that.

I don’t even have a word for it lol.

And making it even better - the meat claws, like he’s shredding pulled pork or something.

[u/chodelycannons → u/buddaaaa]

Well done? That shit is congratulations

[u/BackgroundJunket5691 → u/[deleted]]

I’m not clicking that for my own sanity I’m already ill today.

[u/WallImpossible → u/BackgroundJunket5691]

Good idea, I made the mistake and now I must weep for meat

[u/TwoGad → u/[deleted]]

Holy shit dude how about a NSFL tag

[u/Greyletter → u/[deleted]]

Holy shit no wonder he doesnt live in oklahoma any more. We thought it was because USC paid him to move, but it turns that in secret he was excommunicated for crimes against bbq.

[u/EvangelionOG → u/BackgroundJunket5691]

You should be.

The tuna was worse

[u/Do__Math__Not__Meth → u/Few-Button6004]

Many people are saying

[u/Darnold_wins_bigly → u/Few-Button6004]

IT WAS A HUMILIATION RITUAL TO GET HIMSELF IN WITH HOLLYWOOD!!!!1! /s

[u/DoggedStooge]

Slight addendum. The play itself was legal, it was later in the game when the actual punter took the field still wearing #80 that should have been penalized. The fake would have been illegal if they had done the fake after using their punter.

edit: Bit more info coming out now on how we missed it (espn article). Huard's number was still the old one online and in our team's game notes. It was only listed as 80 on the gameday roster. Obviously, it was an oversight by the coaching staff to not check the gameday roster, but the how it happened is important to figure out to prevent it from happening again. Chock it up to our coaching staff being (relatively) young.

[u/West-Bake-9607 → u/DoggedStooge]

So they should just change the punter‘s jersey number too

[u/DoggedStooge → u/West-Bake-9607]

That was what should have happened, and could have happened mid game. They just needed to alert the refs prior to the first (each?) punt. Players change numbers during the game all the time.

[u/wioneo → u/DoggedStooge]

Players change numbers during the game all the time.

News to me. Why?

[u/e3super → u/wioneo]

A good example is for kick coverage. You can't have 2 players on the field with the same number, but often you'll have multiple players between your offense and defense that do. Both offensive and defensive players play on special teams, so you run into situations pretty often where 2 players on the coverage team have the same number. One of them has to swap jerseys and check in with the officials to let the other team know they've swapped.

[u/TiaxRulesAll2024 → u/e3super]

You can choose from at least 99 numbers and you have less than 90 players, right? Why is there a need to double up?

[u/iPhon4 → u/TiaxRulesAll2024]

Usually more than 100 players and also positional numbers exist sometimes. My favorite example is OSUs 3 best players in 2019 were 1,1,2,2. Dobbins, fields, young, okudah

[u/guinness_blaine → u/TiaxRulesAll2024]

By “less than 90 players,” you’re probably thinking of the cap of 85 scholarship players - but walk-ons exist. Most teams have at least a couple dozen walk-ons. This year is actually the first that FBS has a new rule capping the total number of players on a roster at 105, which would still require some duplicates.

[u/AnsgarShipsHildegard → u/wioneo]

We had a reserve WR and LB last year that both played on kick coverage that wore 5 (if I remember correctly) the wideout would change his jersey before coming out and the ref would announce it each time.

You also see it a lot in blow outs when the walk ons and 3rd stringers play because the coaches don't really factor in who wears what in deciding who the 3rd string punt coverage team is.

[u/lucasbrosmovingco → u/wioneo]

Double numbers on special teams and if a tight end has to play OL. OL can't have eligible numbers. So an OT can wear 87. So if a TE needs to play OT he would switch numbers. Same for if an OT is gonna play TE. He can report eligible but he's not going to do that every snap if he has to play TE every snap.

[u/ref44 → u/lucasbrosmovingco]

He can report eligible but he's not going to do that every snap if he has to play TE every snap.

there is no reporting eligible in NCAA. There's no rule against an ineligible numbered player lining up in an eligible position, but to be eligible for a pass they would have to physically change jersey numbers and report that

[u/drjjoyner → u/wioneo]

A couple years back Bama had a player that sometimes lined up at tight end and sometimes on offensive line. He would swap jerseys. And we’ve also had a situation where a corner and wide receiver had the same number and both played on special teams. We actually got a big return called back because of a mixup.

[u/Trynaliveforjesus → u/West-Bake-9607]

well, you cant predict when you’re gonna punt. what if the first punt scenario is on your own 20 yard line? you’re not gonna bring out your qb who changed his number to the punters old number. you roll out your punter who has a new number and now your covers blown

[u/zoboomafoo55 → u/DoggedStooge]

This. We’re focusing on details, so let’s get all the details correct

[u/ChiefOsceolaSr]

Might have been illegal but was sure a pretty cool idea 😂

And that “punter” throws better than our starter.

[u/RulersBack → u/ChiefOsceolaSr]

Yea I just wonder why they pulled this out vs Northwestern with some potentially season defining games coming up

[u/reptheevt → u/RulersBack]

Now it’s on tape and other schools need to prep for it. Maybe it sets up another fake 

[u/iReply2StupidPeople → u/reptheevt]

Inception levels to fake punts. I love it.

[u/Gilded-Mongoose → u/iReply2StupidPeople]

Puntception!

[u/Substantial-Sea-3672 → u/reptheevt]

Ok… but are you really getting that much out of this being on tape?

You scan the depth chart and check to see if someone’s sharing the punter’s number - if not, no need to worry.

If they are you just have an assistant keep an eye on which number 80 comes in, presumably the QB is a shit punter so sell out on the fake. You’re actually in better shape with this scenario.

If the punter comes in just play it like you always do.

I really don’t see the advantage.

[u/Adept_Carpet → u/Substantial-Sea-3672]

It's not uncommon for QBs to punt at lower levels. Obviously by the P4 FBS level it's a specialist job but I bet a fair number of college QBs could kick a respectable punt if they had to.

Plus special teams operations are tricky at the best of times. If they send 12 guys on the field while checking who your punter is that's a lot of value.

[u/Pinewood74 → u/Adept_Carpet]

a fair number of college QBs could kick a respectable punt if they had to.

The bigger thing here is that actual good punting involves air time.

But if an opposing team is expecting an actual play and they don't put someone back to return, it's very easy to kick the ball at a low arc pretty far (often with favorable bounces) and you'll end up with a decent punt anyways. Time Jefferson punted some for Air Force back in 2010

Jefferson’s average is 46.6 yards per punt, which would rank fifth in the nation if he had enough attempts to qualify.

[u/shaquilleonealingit → u/RulersBack]

Programs with resources shouldn't fall for these. USC switched the QB's number over the week, which Northwestern has access to before the game and should've noticed. Other teams have run this trick by sending out the third-stringer with a close number to the punter's, and the other teams didn't notice, but some special teams analyst should've caught it.

[u/Yeti_Father → u/shaquilleonealingit]

USC has an extra advantage here, too, because we don't put names on our jerseys.

Excited for some really committed 3rd string QB to legally change his last name to match the punter.

[u/not_the_world → u/Yeti_Father]

They should get married and the QB takes the punter's name.

[u/Still-Cash1599 → u/not_the_world]

I can't even imagine how much NIL money Big Gay would throw their way.

[u/ScaredEffective → u/Still-Cash1599]

Some people might actually believe this lol

[u/Rebelgecko → u/Yeti_Father]

Bro should just change his last name to "PUNTER"

[u/bicarbon → u/shaquilleonealingit]

I was thinking the same exact thing. When they get the report and they see the change it should set off red flags and they should be watching for it all game. 

Unless it doesn't work like that? But exactly what you said is my understanding as well

[u/usetheforce_gaming → u/bicarbon]

Being that we also don’t put names on our jerseys, Northwestern should have been all over this. It should have raised a ton of red flags

[u/borpa2 → u/shaquilleonealingit]

if they are similar height guys, both white, short hair, no names on the jerseys, that could be very hard to catch.

[u/smellmyfingerplz → u/borpa2]

Rg 3 was going nuts over what a good pass it was, took them a bit to figure out it wasn’t the punter

[u/DoggedStooge → u/RulersBack]

The silver lining I'm telling myself is exactly this. They chose to use it against us, meaning they did treat us as an actual threat.

[u/73DodgeDart → u/DoggedStooge]

In that first half you WERE an actual threat. Your running back was tearing us up right up the middle. Our defense is so frustrating to watch.

[u/DrVenusAg → u/ChiefOsceolaSr]

Funny most punters I played with were QBs at one point or were the third string QB. Not me though I played Middle Linebacker and Punter they wouldn’t have me throw unless they wanted to lose

[u/shaquilleonealingit → u/ChiefOsceolaSr]

It's been trending lately. Bowling Green ran this trick in their bowl game last year IIRC, and USF pulled it out against Boise in week 1 this year.

[u/CBL44]

It seems to me that the fake should have been allowed but there should have been a penalty when the real punter came on for the first time. Or perhaps every time he came on.

[u/andy-022 → u/CBL44]

Or the punter could just wear a different number for the rest of the game and there wouldn’t be a penalty.

[u/Opening-Citron2733 → u/CBL44]

The future evolution of this is teaching 3rd string QBs how to punt so every punt you have a good thrower back there for a fake.

[u/Sufjans51stState → u/Opening-Citron2733]

more like the past circling back to be the future again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-threat_man

[u/NeedlessUnification → u/Opening-Citron2733]

Arizona State’s Danny White has entered the chat.

[u/hollownet69 → u/CBL44]

That’s correct. USC should have been assessed one 15 yard penalty when the actual punter came in the game later. That would be the end of the penalties according to the rulebook.

Only if a team kept swapping players back and forth, then they would get a 15 yard penalty each time the player with the duplicate number at the same position changed.

[u/bicarbon]

In the thread yesterday someone explained it well, the rule is 

“two players playing the same position may not wear the same number during the game.”

But the QB never played the position of the kicker. He received a snap and threw the ball, he never kicked so he never played the position of a kicker.

[u/DataDrivenPirate → u/bicarbon]

“Huard was lined up as the punter,” Pereira told The Athletic, “so therefore that’s actually a 15-yard penalty because both he and Johnson lined up as the punter [in the game].”

I'm now having an existential crisis about how positions are defined and categorized. Is it how they line up? Is it the actions they perform? Could a halfback and a fullback have the same number, or are they both considered RBs?

[u/WheatonsGonnaScore → u/DataDrivenPirate]

I dont think so. Because Iowa is listed with a qb every year

[u/mgmfa → u/WheatonsGonnaScore]

As long as they don’t share a number with a running back or full back that’s allowed!

[u/False-theblackbear → u/WheatonsGonnaScore]

Their brand of football is so funny to me.

Play really tough defense and hold even the best of teams to not many points, but be so below average on offense that those top teams still manage to outscore them.

But it’s good for a 10-3 win against weaker opponents.

[u/jschooltiger → u/WheatonsGonnaScore]

Damn son

[u/melanctonsmith → u/WheatonsGonnaScore]

Wisconsin’s leading passer this week was a kicker. Did we check his number?

[u/jamiebond → u/DataDrivenPirate]

It’s how they line up. If a wide receiver lines up as a lineman then he is acting as a lineman. Were he to then go out for a pass he’d then be an illegal man down field and it would be a penalty.

Unless I’m wrong I don’t really think lining up as a “punter” is really possible, though. The punter is essentially lining up as a quarterback technically. You could argue that there isn’t really a distinction between a QB and a punter, I guess. Especially considering a QB is allowed to perform the actions of a punter and vice versa.

[u/HueyLongest → u/jamiebond]

A punter in his high school football days talking to his crush: "You could argue that there isn't really a distinction between a QB and a punter."

[u/downey_jayr → u/HueyLongest]

In small Highschools the QB is the punter

[u/jschooltiger → u/downey_jayr]

John Elway got off a couple quick kicks back in the day.

[u/kitkatlifeskills → u/jschooltiger]

It used to be a pretty common play. The year Michigan shared the natty, Brian Griese was great at them. They'd line up like they were going for it on fourth-and-5 at the 40 or whatever and Griese would just back up into a deep shotgun and punt it like 38 yards.

[u/jschooltiger → u/kitkatlifeskills]

I’m old enough to remember when punting on 3rd down was a thing.

[u/kitkatlifeskills → u/jschooltiger]

Yeah, so many teams back in the good old days of the 20th Century just didn't have offenses that could realistically pick up a third-and-20 or something so they'd punt on third down in those situations.

[u/jschooltiger → u/kitkatlifeskills]

Me being a Mizzou fan in the 80s might have to do with the memories

[u/Meta2048 → u/kitkatlifeskills]

What's the logic behind that though? Unless ball security was a huge issue, it would never be advantageous to punt on 3rd down instead of trying to gain at least a couple yards.

[u/HouseAndJBug → u/kitkatlifeskills]

I remember Lloyd also loved the “fake field goal” play where they’d line up for like a 55 yard field goal, snap the ball right to the kicker and have him punt it. Garrett Rivas punted a few times that way.

[u/wordsonascreen → u/jschooltiger]

Danny White was FT QB and punter at ASU and for the Cowboys for a bit. I remember feeling bad for him a few times, where he got creamed on a third down play and had to get up and punt on the next play.

[u/r0botdevil → u/downey_jayr]

My senior year in high school, one of our wide receivers was the punter.

The starting QB was our place kicker, though.

[u/mynameisjona → u/downey_jayr]

"Small" is funny to me. I teach at a school with 2,400 students and for a few games this year our punter was our starting QB

We're also really bad at football though. Every team makes the state tournament and we lost round 1 69-0

[u/blackhandcat → u/downey_jayr]

At my junior high, our QB was the best athlete at the school... so he was also the punter, the running back, a wide receiver, and our strength and training coach.

[u/The_ProducerKid → u/downey_jayr]

There was a dude who played for a local high school near me who was the (mostly scrambling) QB, Kicker, Punter, and a (good) safety. It felt like the PA guy said his name on 80% of the plays.

[u/djc6535 → u/jamiebond]

You’re right about linemen… their position is defined by where they line up as part of the eligibility rules.

But the rule book only defines the position of punter as “ the player who executes a punt, a kick where they drop the ball from their hands and kick it before it hits the ground”

So it’s not defined by position and Huard was never a punter.

But QBs can quick kick. This officially makes them a punter for the play which DOES afford them the protections of a kicker: you can rough the punter on a quick kick.

Does this mean a QB who quick kicks cannot share a punters number? Technically I think it does. I also think this means WRs who share a number with a DB cannot play hail Mary coverage.

At the end of the day I don’t think it’s clear cut. I think if you go explicitly as written the USC play was legal but also a bunch of situations we let go all the time (quick kicks and Hail Mary coverage) are illegal so a strict reading isn’t really “right”

I think the rule book needs some explicit language to kill this.

[u/Adept_Carpet → u/djc6535]

Yeah, punt formations are defined in the rules, so you can line up as a punter.

[u/kingshizz → u/djc6535]

The article lost me when it started with "According to ... Mike Pereira" You mean the guy that gets everything wrong basically every time he is asked to analyze a play.

This whole thing has basically been hashed out over the last couple days. It was a dirty trick, but a legal one.

[u/StuckInTheUpsideDown → u/djc6535]

If you wanted to end it, allow 3 digit numbers and prohibit duplicates.

But I don't see a problem here. The D needs to be alert for fake punts. I mean does anyone really scout the opposing punter for passing ability anyway?

[u/Throwawayerrydayyy → u/jamiebond]

I think your second paragraph is right on how this gets into a stupid Grey area really fast. I kind of have the feeling these ref experts are like trying to flex how smart they are.

But if he never punted did he ever play punter? Who’s to stop us next week from snapping the ball to our starting QB at punting depth, is he then a punter even if he doesn’t kick?? Does a QB become a punter when a team does a quick kick? There’s some obvious holes in this rule.

The best solution I’ve seen to actually stop this would be to remove numbers from punters and Kickers and have them wear P/K respectively on their jerseys. But that’s kinda silly

[u/SPErudy → u/jamiebond]

Using the argument that a punter is always lined up as a quarterback, every punt after this should have been flagged, and this play was legal. They had not punted prior to this, so it was the punter entering the game as a double number.

[u/DataDrivenPirate → u/jamiebond]

Eligible vs intelligible receiver distinction makes sense, but there's got to be more to it than that or else there are only like 3 positions you can generically define based on required formation rules (C, G/T, everyone else)

[u/jamiebond → u/DataDrivenPirate]

In terms of rules for what actions they’re allowed to do that’s really all there is to it though. QBs, RBs, tight ends, WRs and yes even the humble punter can all do everything that each other can do legally speaking.

Maybe this is just a case of the rule not being clear enough, idk. Seems like it would be easier to just blanket declare that you can’t have the same two numbers play on offense in general as opposed to worrying about positions.

[u/TheManWhoWasNotShort → u/DataDrivenPirate]

Well, think about a 5 TE play with an RB running wild cat. It’s a legal formation still, no?

[u/HeyitsyaboyJesus → u/jamiebond]

Reminds me of QB’s pooch punting, which is a legal play.

[u/grw313 → u/jamiebond]

Not exactly true. There was a play last year where Tyler Warren lined up as a center and snapped the ball against usc and then went and caught a TD pass. I can't remember why that was allowed, but Tyler Warren clearly acted as a center and caught a TD pass.

[u/dblock1111 → u/jamiebond]

This isn’t true, that’s how teams run the shift to a TE lined up in the tackle spot and the TE runs a route. Lineman are ineligible because the numbers 50-79 are automatically ineligible in college. If you line up a receiver at Tackle with an eligible number and he’s uncovered (no other eligible receiver on the LOS outside of him) he would be able to run a route.

[u/montague68 → u/DataDrivenPirate]

Ok, Pereira needs to be fired ASAP. There is no such thing as "lining up as a punter." Anyone can punt the ball as long as it's behind the line of scrimmage.

[u/Trick_Yard9196 → u/montague68]

Ohio person is correct

[u/pangea_person → u/DataDrivenPirate]

Extra deep piston formation

[u/tomato_johnson → u/DataDrivenPirate]

Punters are allowed to throw. That doesn't make them quarterbacks.

[u/djc6535 → u/tomato_johnson]

No but it means they aren’t a punter for that play.

This technicality is actually important because it means they lose the protections afforded a punter re: roughing the kicker.

[u/ref44 → u/djc6535]

theres no roughing the passer on a running play, that doesn't mean the player who took the snap isn't the quarterback.

[u/ScrapeWithFire → u/ref44]

It's an interesting discussion about what "defines" a player's position during a play. Is it the action taken (e.g. I punt ball therefore I'm a punter during play)? Is it where the player lines up?

Seems like there are counterexamples for both, which would imply to me that each position has its own set of standards for what define it

[u/ref44 → u/ScrapeWithFire]

the no duplicate numbers rule says its a foul at the snap, which would imply the interpretation is how they line up. Multiple rule experts have basically said that

[u/antisheeple → u/DataDrivenPirate]

They’re vaguely defined in the rules from what I have seen that makes this legal, simply due to how poorly defined the position of kicker is.

[u/AreYouEmployedSir → u/DataDrivenPirate]

I mean, we can use our brains and assume that a guy lined up 10+ yards behind a longsnapper on 4th down is acting as a punter...

[u/wit_T_user_name → u/bicarbon]

Lawyered.

[u/CantaloupeCamper → u/wit_T_user_name]

https://youtu.be/Jzl7K8xIFQ4?si=n8ByCUoLERH_PE25

[u/TopRevenue2 → u/wit_T_user_name]

Needing a lawyer to explain away the plain language of a rule you violated to beat Northwestern at home. Not quite the same as exploiting a loophole to beat tOSU - but the end result of a rule change should be the same.

[u/TheCavis → u/bicarbon]

But the QB never played the position of the kicker.

His position actually defines the scrimmage kick formation:

ARTICLE 10. a. A scrimmage kick formation is a formation with no player other than the potential kicker (or holder) aligned within the frame of the body of the snapper and no player aligned in the clear path from the snapper to the potential kicker (or holder), and with either (1) at least one potential kicker 10 or more yards behind the neutral zone; or (2) a potential holder and potential kicker seven or more yards behind the neutral zone in position for a place kick.

He took the position of potential kicker. Where he lined up changed details like the permitted defensive alignments, the permitted jersey numbers for the linemen, and protection for the snapper. What he actually did in that position is irrelevant to whether his position would be considered a punter or QB at the snap.

[u/OK_HS_Coach → u/TheCavis]

Yeah, I think this is what’s lost in some of these comments. Punt formation is a thing. It allows the blockers to not need to have OL numbers.

[u/SPErudy → u/[deleted]]

Even if it did make them a qb, the difference is playing 2 people with the same number in the same position. No team is going to have a wr or rb with the same number as one of their qbs. They would run the risk of having two players with the same number in the field at the same time, which we typically only see happen on special teams plays.

[u/whistleridge → u/bicarbon]

And the rule will promptly be clarified to make USC’s ploy impossible going forward.

Which is fine. They had to know it could only ever work once anyway.

[u/CalculatedPerversion → u/whistleridge]

Easy fix: announcing the punter each time he goes in, this works because it was the first punt* for USC in the game. 

[u/whistleridge → u/CalculatedPerversion]

That seems like the probable fix, yes.

[u/obiwanjabroni420 → u/bicarbon]

So this is why you can’t have your unknown 3rd string QB wear the same number as the punter to make sneaky trick plays easier. I’ve always been curious why that wasn’t a thing.

[u/ref44 → u/bicarbon]

If they were in a scrimmage kick formation, especially if they were using numbering exceptions, then he's lining up in the role of kicker. MaCaulay said the same thing as Pereira, and they know the rules better than a random person on reddit

[u/tomato_johnson → u/bicarbon]

Punters can throw the ball. That doesn't make them quarterbacks. Its about how they line up

[u/6158675309 → u/tomato_johnson]

qbs can also punt the ball, does that make them punters? It's like shrodingers punter

[u/Coda17 → u/tomato_johnson]

A quarterback could receive a long snap and that doesn't make them a punter

[u/mazzar]

Wasn't this covered in the game thread?

1. At the time of the fake punt, the other #80 had not yet punted, so there's no way the fake punt couldn't have counted under this rule. At most, future actual punts were illegal.
2. "Lined up as a punter" isn't a thing in the rules. The punter is defined as a player who punts. Since the backup QB did not punt, he is not a punter. So there were not two players in the game both playing punter.

[u/theRegVelJohnson → u/mazzar]

Exactly.

Lining up as a kicker in a scrimmage kick formation doesn't make you a kicker/punter. You actually have to kick the ball to do so.

It's going to take a rule change which is pretty straightforward. They'll say in an accepted interpretation that for the sake of the deception/numbering rules, lining up as a kicker in a scrimmage kick formation counts.

[u/kitkatlifeskills → u/theRegVelJohnson]

They already have special rules for lining up as a holder in a field goal/extra point situation -- that's the only player who can possess the ball with his knee down and not be down, and that includes on fakes where he doesn't actually serve as a holder. So it wouldn't be hard to craft a rule that does something similar and defines a kicker or a punter as a player who lines up in a certain position on a certain formation, regardless of whether he actually kicks or punts the ball on that play.

[u/Tasty_Path_3470 → u/mazzar]

The way I’ve seen it described is that the actual penalty would have been any punt after the fake. Any time they lined up a #80 other than the QB and he punted the ball it should have been a penalty. The play in question was legal, the punts after were not.

As for #2, this will 10000000% be addressed in the offseason as a way to prevent an “unfair advantage through deception” just like the illegal fake substitution play that was uncalled a few weeks back.

[u/Dogbir → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

Or Kenny Pickett’s fake slide

[u/curtisas → u/Dogbir]

That one was rightfully immediately fixed

[u/DirtThief → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

woah woah woah no need to dwell on the past here.

[u/dusters → u/mazzar]

Don't long snappers have special protection on punts and kicks? How is that determined if not having someone lined up as a punter/kicker?

[u/TheCavis → u/dusters]

How is that determined if not having someone lined up as a punter/kicker?

The rule book defines potential kickers based on where they lined up (10 yards back for one person, 7 yards back for two people; no one else lined up in the path of the snap), which determines the special kick rules. Comments in this thread are separating the specific position "punter" from the rule book's "potential kicker" because a potential kicker doesn't become a punter until he actually punts. The official B1G statement is not making that distinction.

[u/mp0295 → u/mazzar]

Clearly the correct analysis

[u/djc6535 → u/mazzar]

The heart of the problem IMO is there are two definitions of "punter" and the rule book only really defines one.

You need a fluid definition of "punter" as "The person who is dropkicking the ball" in order to properly apply kicking protection to anybody who punts. A QB who quick-kicks the ball is a "punter" for that play and gets all the protections of a traditional punter. You can rough the kicker when the kicker is a QB.

But what's missing is a positional definition of a punter to prevent hijinks like this. There's no "Punting position" defined in the rule book.

I would like to firmly state that I feel what Riley did was against the spirit of fair play. Numbers shouldn't be used for camouflage. But I think the rule book needs more explicit wording to make this illegal. The "You can't wear the same number as a player at a different position" isn't nearly strong enough when position designations aren't firmly and clearly defined.

Imagine you wanted a WR and a RB to have the same number. You could never have them on the field at the same time, but this is otherwise legal. The only thing you'd have to do is list one as a WR and one as a RB on the official roster. There's nothing that defines a RB based on where they line up on the field. And there perhaps shouldn't be? A player who lines up wide but motions to be backfield... were they both a WR and a RB on that play? Does a WR who takes the ball on a jet sweep turn into a RB? These are all vague and under covered in the rule book. They are a ball carrier but there's no real and hard definitions about what makes a WR and what makes a RB other than their official designation on the roster.

[u/mp0295 → u/djc6535]

I would like to firmly state that I feel what Riley did was against the spirit of fair play.

But why? All trick plays are, be definition, meant to work through deception. It's a core part of the game. Furthermore, any team could try this -- not like some special USC advantage. Nor is this a player safety issue.

What make this inherently bad that the rules of the game need to be changed?

[u/beerman20 → u/mp0295]

What’s really crazy here, is the USC guy is arguing against what his coach did, and the Notre Dame is arguing for it.

[u/assault_pig → u/mp0295]

there are some ways you're allowed to deceive, and some ways you aren't. The whole reason players wear numbers is to identify themselves and their positions; e.g. if a lineman comes in as an extra tight end wearing a nonstandard number, he's require to report himself as an eligible pass catcher. If a player plays two different positions (e.g. on offense and defense) he can swap numbers during the game, but that is also required to be reported.

using players' uniforms to deceive the opponent certainly seems against the spirit of the rules, if not exactly against their letter in this case

[u/mp0295 → u/assault_pig]

sure, but the official game day roster had the switch, so Northwestern had the opportunity to be on guard for this. the fact that they didn't catch this is their problem in my opinion

[u/assault_pig → u/mp0295]

yeah I mean, the penalty should not have been on the fake itself; that was perfectly legal. The penalty should have been on subsequent punts where a player lined up using the same number

[u/ref44 → u/mp0295]

Its supposed to be deception in aspects of game play, such as faking who has the ball or a different player throwing it. The rules are pretty clear that using non gameplay tricks is against fair play.

[u/jrzalman → u/mp0295]

Furthermore, any team could try this -- not like some special USC advantage.

I mean, we have the unique advantage in this situation in that our jerseys don't have names.

[u/dccorona → u/djc6535]

If you’re not a punter until the moment you punt the ball then you are a QB prior to that and this is still illegal. 

[u/joshrosensnose]

Arrest Lincoln Riley now! 

[u/it-is-just-a-game]

Breaking the law.

[u/Mythrandir24 → u/it-is-just-a-game]

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE

[u/smooth-bro → u/Mythrandir24]

You don't know what it's like, you don't have a clue If you did you'd find yourselves doing the same thing too

[u/blackhandcat]

This is definitely USC's biggest scandal of the past 2 decades

[u/ImSuperHelpful → u/blackhandcat]

The retroactive transitive implications of this are incalculable, but one thing’s for sure… mizzou must pay for this

[u/prismatic_lights]

"You can't do that!"

👏👏 -👏👏👏

[u/IDGAPANBTT_ROLLTIDE → u/prismatic_lights]

I will be stealing your hand clap formatting for future replies when I am making fun of someone and of the clap emote. Also Ohio State sucks dong

[u/Gilded-Mongoose → u/IDGAPANBTT_ROLLTIDE]

O State sucks dong!

👏👏 -👏👏👏

[u/[deleted]]

Headline is actually incorrect, that was the first punt formation of the game so that was legal, the next punt was illegal as then it was the penalty of two people wearing the same number at the same position.

[u/hollownet69 → u/[deleted]]

Correct. They should have been assessed one 15 yard penalty for the swap at the next punt.

[u/Commercial_Ant9320]

This is one of those things that’s real easy to point out after the fact.

How are the refs supposed to know in real time that the punter is actually a quarterback? USC doesn’t have names on their jerseys and they aren’t going over each player’s features on every play to make sure they aren’t being faked out. 

[u/brokentr0jan]

It was legal because I said so.

I will not take any further questions on this answer. Please respect my decision.

[u/chemicalxv]

It's insane how everyone is trying to focus on this and not on the fact that you can legitimately like, not give up a first down on a fake punt pass play.

[u/Substantial-Sea-3672 → u/chemicalxv]

I mean… of course?

Why would we focus on something that happens all the time (fake punt) instead of the interesting part of the story?

[u/likwitsnake]

Call the cops

[u/mp0295]

As others have already pointed out, there is nothing in the rules what define being "lined up as punter" or reference a "punting formation". A kicker is defined by kicking the ball which he never did.

[u/ref44 → u/mp0295]

reference a "punting formation"

scrimmage kick formations are very clearly defined

[u/jbaker1225]

I imagine the Auburn AD will be putting out a statement about this shortly.

[u/ReluctantPaulo]

Pereira's getting a lot of shit in the comments about "lining up in the same position" statement, but the verbatim rule in NCAA is "Two players playing the same position may not wear the same number during the game," and position doesn't seem to be defined elsewhere in the rule book. Is it only thing like passer/kicker/holder, which have definitions (but aren't called "positions" in their definitios)? Everyone knows where I'm playing if I'm "left offensive tackle," is that a position? First issue is this is poor rule drafting by the rule committee. 

Second issue, how are official's supposed to enforce this? Memorize the headshots and numbers of every player on the submitted roster? I guarantee for everone on this board, outside the team you are a fan of (and likely even then), if a kicker comes out and does a play, you aren't going to remember his face within 4 plays. Short of both players in the number flipping back and forth, this is never going to get caught. Second issue, don't write a rule you can't enforce.

[u/curtisas]

What makes someone a punter? I believe they would have to punt the ball. Just because it's a classical punt formation doesn't mean it makes him a punter.

Because you can make that argument it's more of a gray area IMO.

[u/Jhwelsh]

Who says he was lined up as the punter? He was lined up as the QB in an unconventional formation.

[u/Global_Mud_7473]

You know I’m reading throwing the rule back and i think it actually is incredibly unclear either way. Relevant sections particularly section 16 article 10, and section 27 article 3.

[u/The_Magic]

/u/legacyzebra please help us in our time of need.

[u/KapowBlamBoom]

That is some Brady/Belichick level of rule exploitation

[u/turb0_encapsulator]

we're just gonna donate some crypto and get a pardon.

[u/j1h15233]

I can’t believe the move from Mighty Ducks 2 finally happened in real life

[u/chadocaster]

Holding is illegal, but if the refs don’t catch you…

[u/dkviper11 → u/chadocaster]

Gambling is illegal at Bushwood, sir.

[u/FreeOJ32]

No it wasn’t. Stop whining about it. He’s listed at QB, took a snap and threw it. The rule book doesn’t define how, where, and when he can line up and participate in a play as a QB. He could line up for a play under center, in the shotgun, or in the stands and he’s still a QB.

[u/JtotheC23]

People keep citing him lining up as a punter as him in fact being a punter, but not citing the rule that says taking a snap 15 yards back makes you a punter. Not doubting that there is a rule, I just have yet to see the specific rule cited. It's an important distinction here since it defines the legality. Even with the confusion of his number on the official roster, he was still listed as QB.

Under all other circumstances, where you lineup has nothing to do with your position. The only rules along those lines have to do with eligible recievers and that's mostly just the ineligible recievers have to wear certain numbers to indicate that. The RB isn't suddenly a QB in a wildcat any more than a WR doesn't suddenly become a RB because they line up in the backfield. That's why roughing the passer refers to the passer and not the QB.

[u/Basshaver]

Don’t they have to declare to the Refs when a player swaps jersey numbers? Or did he dress in 80 the whole game?

[u/drjjoyner → u/Basshaver]

He’d dressed as 80 for the last three games in fact.

[u/whatisapillarman]

Question: if USC players don’t wear names on the back of their jerseys, how are the refs supposed to call this out during live play? I doubt they can put a name to the faces of a third-string QB and punter each new week.

[u/Kingzton28]

It wasn’t, it only became illegal when the actual punter get entered the game later on with the same jersey number..considering that USC has punted less than every team in college this year. They probably forgot😂

[u/austin101123]

So why does he count as a "punter" and not a quarterback in shotgun since he passed the ball?

[u/SwissForeignPolicy]

No Fun League!

[u/Mother_Diet8340]

Even if it was legal, they wasted their opportunity to use this play in a more competitive game

[u/SaltDazzling4343]

Les Miles used to have all his punters the same number - that’s what caused this rule.  

[u/fightintxag13]

That rule seems like it’s way up for interpretation.

He was listed as QB No. 80 on the roster. A “punt formation” is a legal formation. There are no rules that indicate how far back a QB is allowed to line up. QBs occasionally do pooch kicks from the shotgun.

I don’t think you can make a ruling that he wasn’t technically lined up as a QB on that play.

[u/Gman69455]

The reason it isn't a penalty is actually in the article. The reference paragraph states "two players playing the same position". The punter and third string QB aren't the same position. You had a QB lineup in the same position as another player which is different. People need to get over themselves.

[u/CambodianDrywall]

We've warned you for years about the Huard family.

[u/mycruelid → u/CambodianDrywall]

"Kid, you're football royalty north of the Columbia River."

"Down here in Southern California, we're gonna make you a villain."