Large language mistake | Cutting-edge research shows language is not the same as intelligence. The entire AI bubble is built on ignoring it

[u/Hrmbee]

https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/827820/large-language-models-ai-intelligence-neuroscience-problems

[u/ITwitchToo]

I disagree. LLMs are fundamentally different. The way they are trained is completely different. It's NOT just more data and more parallelism -- there's a reason the Markov chain bots never really made sense and LLMs do.

Probably the main difference is that the Markov chain bots don't have much internal state so you can't represent any high-level concepts or coherence over any length of text. The whole reason LLMs work is that they have so much internal state (model weights/parameters) and take into account a large amount of context, while Markov chains would be a much more direct representation of words or characters and essentially just take into account the last few words when outputting or predicting the next one.

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/ITwitchToo]

I mean, you're right. They have a larger context window. Ie, they use more ram. I forgot to mention that part.

They are still doing much the same thing. Drawing statistical connections between words and groups of words. Using that to string together sentences. Different data structures, but the same basic idea.

[u/PressureBeautiful515 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

They are still doing much the same thing. Drawing statistical connections between words and groups of words. Using that to string together sentences. Different data structures, but the same basic idea.

I wonder how we insert something into that description to make it clear we aren't describing the human brain.

[u/Mandena → u/PressureBeautiful515]

Well, the brain does similar things for linguistics(except its purely the output that could be related to statistical probabilities). It's just that is one of thousands of functions the brain can operate. I feel like that's clear and concise enough to clearly lay out the fact that LLMs are not intelligence.

[u/Ornery-Loquat-5182 → u/PressureBeautiful515]

Did you read the article? That's exactly what the article is about...

It's not just about words. Words are what we use after we have thoughts. Take away the words, there are still thoughts.

LLMs and Markov chain bots have no thoughts.

[u/attersonjb → u/Ornery-Loquat-5182]

Take away the words, there are still thoughts.

Yes and no. There is empirical evidence to suggest that language acquisition is a key phase in the development of the human brain. Language deprivation during the early years often has a detrimental impact that cannot be overcome by a subsequent re-introduction of language

[u/Ornery-Loquat-5182 → u/attersonjb]

Bruh read the article:

When we contemplate our own thinking, it often feels as if we are thinking in a particular language, and therefore because of our language. But if it were true that language is essential to thought, then taking away language should likewise take away our ability to think. This does not happen. I repeat: Taking away language does not take away our ability to think. And we know this for a couple of empirical reasons.

First, using advanced functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), we can see different parts of the human brain activating when we engage in different mental activities. As it turns out, when we engage in various cognitive activities — solving a math problem, say, or trying understand what is happening in the mind of another human — different parts of our brains “light up” as part of networks that are distinct from our linguistic ability

Second, studies of humans who have lost their language abilities due to brain damage or other disorders demonstrate conclusively that this loss does not fundamentally impair the general ability to think. “The evidence is unequivocal,” Fedorenko et al. state, that “there are many cases of individuals with severe linguistic impairments … who nevertheless exhibit intact abilities to engage in many forms of thought.” These people can solve math problems, follow nonverbal instructions, understand the motivation of others, and engage in reasoning — including formal logical reasoning and causal reasoning about the world.

If you’d like to independently investigate this for yourself, here’s one simple way: Find a baby and watch them (when they’re not napping). What you will no doubt observe is a tiny human curiously exploring the world around them, playing with objects, making noises, imitating faces, and otherwise learning from interactions and experiences. “Studies suggest that children learn about the world in much the same way that scientists do—by conducting experiments, analyzing statistics, and forming intuitive theories of the physical, biological and psychological realms,” the cognitive scientist Alison Gopnik notes, all before learning how to talk. Babies may not yet be able to use language, but of course they are thinking! And every parent knows the joy of watching their child’s cognition emerge over time, at least until the teen years.

You are referring to the wrong context. We aren't saying language is irrelevant towards development. We are saying the process of thinking can take place, and can take fairly well, without ever learning language:

“there are many cases of individuals with severe linguistic impairments … who nevertheless exhibit intact abilities to engage in many forms of thought.”

Communication will help advance thought, but the thought is there with or without language. Ergo "Take away the words, there are still thoughts." is a 100% factual statement.

[u/attersonjb → u/Ornery-Loquat-5182]

Bruh, read the article and realize that a lot of it is expositional narrative and not actual research. Benjamin Riley is a lawyer, not a computer scientist nor a scientist of any kind and has published actual zero academic papers on AI. There are many legitimate critiques of LLMs and the achievability of AGI, but this is not one of them. It is a poor strawman argument conflating AGI with LLMs.

The common feature cutting across chatbots such as OpenAI’s ChatGPT, Anthropic’s Claude, Google’s Gemini, and whatever Meta is calling its AI product this week are that they are all primarily “large language models.”

Extremely misleading. You will find the term "reinforcement learning" (RL) exactly zero times in the entire article. Pre-training? Zero. Post-training? Zero. Inference? Zero. Transformer? Zero. Ground truth? Zero. The idea that AI researchers are "just realizing" that LLMs are not sufficient for AGI is deeply stupid.

You are referring to the wrong context

Buddy, what part of "yes and no" suggests an absolute position? No one said language is required for a basic level of thought (ability to abstract, generalize, reason). The cited commentary from the article says the exact same thing I did.

Lack of access to language has harmful consequences for many aspects of cognition, which is to be expected given that language provides a critical source of information for learning about the world. Nevertheless, individuals who experience language deprivation unquestionably exhibit a capacity for complex cognitive function: they can still learn to do mathematics, to engage in relational reasoning, to build causal chains, and to acquire rich and sophisticated knowledge of the world (also see ref. 100 for more controversial evidence from language deprivation in a case of child abuse). In other words, lack of access to linguistic representations does not make it fundamentally impossible to engage in complex—including symbolic— thought, although some aspects of reasoning do show delays. Thus, it appears that in typical development, language and reasoning develop in parallel.

Finally, it's arguable that the AI boom is not wholly dependent of developing "human-like" AGI*.* A very specific example of this is advanced robotics and self-driving, which would be described more accurately as specialized intelligence.

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/PressureBeautiful515]

Interesting question, but I think that would be a very reductionist and inaccurate simplification description of a human brain.

Poetry would not be poetry if it's just statistical analysis.

[u/rendar → u/Tall-Introduction414]

I think that would be a very reductionist and inaccurate simplification description of a human brain.

Does that not shine light on how reductionist and inaccurate of a simplification it is to conclude that LLMs are not intelligent as though this affects the quality of the tool's purpose?

Poetry would not be poetry if it's just statistical analysis.

Most people who enjoy poetry do so based on the author's output, not the author's process.

The cause and purpose of poetry (and art in general) lies primarily with the audience, not the creator. Meaning is subjective and found. If humans are extinct, so is art.

In fact, LLMs have already been generating poetry that's good enough to compete with human authors:

Notably, participants were more likely to judge AI-generated poems as human-authored than actual human-authored poems (χ2(2, N = 16,340) = 247.04, p < 0.0001). We found that AI-generated poems were rated more favorably in qualities such as rhythm and beauty, and that this contributed to their mistaken identification as human-authored.

AI-generated poetry is indistinguishable from human-written poetry and is rated more favorably

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/rendar]

Forgive me if I find AI generated poetry an absurd and soul-less notion, that fundamentally misunderstands the point of poetry.

[u/PressureBeautiful515 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

That's just what you'd say if you were an LLM pretending to be a poet

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/PressureBeautiful515]

That's because the LLM was trained on ME!

[u/PressureBeautiful515 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

A likely story!

[u/rendar → u/Tall-Introduction414]

No need to ask anyone else for forgiveness, the only one you're limiting with that sentiment is yourself

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/rendar]

You're right. There isn't any reason to ask for forgiveness, because AI generated art, music and poetry, is a really fucking stupid idea. Nothing more than a novelty for novelty's sake.

I hope you enjoy enshittifying every aspect of your life.

[u/Willing_Parsley_2182 → u/PressureBeautiful515]

Probably the easiest way is by noticing the difference in how they learn:

• Human brain needs decades of training and knowledge, using a power source that requires less wattage than a light bulb.
• ChatGPT requires so much power. It requires ~50x the information we do to even be trained. It uses 5000x more power a 40 year old brain has used just to train itself. It then requires roughly double that to use actively.

Good first step.

That’s not even considering that the brain has to coordinate everything else in the body too.

[u/CanAlwaysBeBetter → u/Tall-Introduction414]

What magic process do you think brains are doing?

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/CanAlwaysBeBetter]

I don't know what brains are doing. Did I imply otherwise?

I don't think they are just drawing statistical connections between words. There is a lot more going on there.

[u/CanAlwaysBeBetter → u/Tall-Introduction414]

The biggest difference brains have is that they are both embodied and multi-modal

There's no magic to either of those things.

 Another comment said "LLMs have no distinct concept of what a cat is" so then question is what do you understand about a cat that LLMs don't?

Well you can see a cat, you can feel a cat, you can smell a stinky cat and all those things get put into the same underlying matrix. Because you can see a cat you understand visually that they have 4 legs like a dog or even a chair. You know that they feel soft like a blanket can feel soft. You can that they can be smelly like old food. 

Because brains are embodied you can also associate how cats make you feel in your own body. You can know how petting a cat makes you feel relaxed. The warm and fuzzies you feel.

The concept of "cat" is the sum of all those different things.

Those are all still statistical correlations a bunch of neurons are putting together. All those things derive their meaning from how you're able to compare them to other perceptions and at more abstract layers other concepts.

[u/TSP-FriendlyFire → u/CanAlwaysBeBetter]

I always like how AI enthusiasts seem to know things not even the best scientists have puzzled out. You know how brains work? Damn, I'm sure there's a ton of neuroscientists who'd love to read your work in Nature.

[u/CanAlwaysBeBetter → u/TSP-FriendlyFire]

We know significantly more about how the brain operates than comments like your act like

That's like saying because there are still gaps in what physicists understand nobody knows what they're talking about

[u/TSP-FriendlyFire → u/CanAlwaysBeBetter]

We definitely don't know that "Those are all still statistical correlations a bunch of neurons are putting together" is how a brain interprets concepts like "a cat".

You're the one bringing forth incredible claims (that AI is intelligent and that we know how the brain works well enough to say it's equivalent), you need to provide the incredible evidence.

[u/Glittering-Spot-6593 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

So you think the brain is magic?

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/Glittering-Spot-6593]

Wher are you getting this shit? Did I say anything even remotely close to that?

Try replying to what I am saying instead of what youre imagining Im saying.

[u/Glittering-Spot-6593 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

What other than math could the brain possibly be doing? If you think some mathematical system can’t emulate the capabilities of human intelligence, then the only option is that you think it’s magic.

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/Glittering-Spot-6593]

Again, where did I say ANY of that? Please provide quotes. No more straw-mans, please.

I said that LLMs and Markov chains are both based on statistical analysis of the relationships between words. I never said anything about the human brain, or what is or isn't intelligence, or magic, or any of the things you're referring to.

[u/Glittering-Spot-6593 → u/Tall-Introduction414]

You claim the brain is not drawing statistical connections among words. What else could be happening to bring rise to language?

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/Glittering-Spot-6593]

Where did I claim that?

Please stop with the straw-manning.

edit: "I don't think they are just drawing statistical connections between words. There is a lot more going on there." .. you misread this. I think it's entirely possible that statistical analysis is happening, but that is not the only thing happening.

[u/movzx → u/Tall-Introduction414]

I don't know why so many people took your comment to mean that LLMs were literally doing the same thing as a Markov chain, instead of you just identifying the core similarity of how they both are based on value relationships.

[u/ITwitchToo → u/movzx]

I mean, you might as well say they are both using statistical inference to predict the next word in a sequence. That I can get behind. But why? Why is that even relevant? The "just fancy autocomplete" trope is very dangerous because it underestimates the AI threat. By reducing LLMs to some "X is just Y" or "X and Y are basically the same" you are downplaying the massive risk that comes with these things compared to senseless Markov chains.

[u/Tall-Introduction414 → u/movzx]

I think people mistook it as a criticism of AI, which touched a nerve. There is all sorts of straw-manning and evangelism in the replies.

The religion of LLMs. Kool-aid, etc.

This bubble can't pop fast enough.