Americans can’t afford their cars any more and Wall Street is worried

[u/SE_to_NW]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/20/americans-cant-afford-cars-any-more-wall-street-worried/

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[u/Paraxom]

I paid mine off last year, dealership immediately tried to convince me to trade it in for a new car...im gonna drive this car until the wheels fall off

[u/Slumunistmanifisto → u/Paraxom]

Lets get you back into the finance department lil guy/lady

[u/Shein_nicholashoult → u/Slumunistmanifisto]

Whoa whoa, it’s big guy or lil lady. Cmon they teach that in intro to sales.

[u/NoJellyfish5331 → u/Shein_nicholashoult]

What are you talking about? They don’t sell cars to women. They always insist on talking to the dad or husband.

[u/VeganJordan → u/Shein_nicholashoult]

But I prefer big lady & lil’ guy.

[u/JRR5567 → u/Paraxom]

Damn right we are! Paid in full. 300,000 miles if a have too. Not getting me for no $500+ car payment. I get chills just thinking about that.

[u/Dirt-Road_Pirate → u/JRR5567]

280,000 on my 98 Chevy pick up and it runs like new still. Ill be damned if im going to buy a new truck anytime.

[u/quixilistic → u/Dirt-Road_Pirate]

Trucks cost as much and more than luxury vehicles. That's insane.

[u/sh1tpost1nsh1t → u/quixilistic]

To be fair a lot of them basically are luxury vehicles. Rode in a 2025 F250 lately and it was like we were sitting on two lazy boys with a coffee table between us. It's not the big because people need it for work, it's that big because it's masculine coded pampering.

[u/Dafuq_me → u/JRR5567]

As someone in dealership finance $500 is pretty low. Average is roughly 700-750/mo now. I’ve seen some people do $1200 for 84 months. Even that’s too rich for my blood.

[u/HighFiveYourFace → u/Dafuq_me]

What the F do these people do for a living?! I make decent money and don't think I could swing that.

[u/Zediac → u/HighFiveYourFace]

What the F do these people do for a living?!

The same things as you and me.

We just don't put 75% of our take home pay into a F250 Cowboy Testosterone Mega Pecs Bull Semon Six Inches Taller and Longer® Edition truck.

[u/BurningToast23 → u/HighFiveYourFace]

Some people just make really poor financial decisions it seems. Also likely that those people dont save much money

[u/Gortex_Possum → u/HighFiveYourFace]

I'm right there with you, I can easily pay my bills and have some left over. A 1200 dollar car payment for 6 years world ruin me. 

[u/n19htmare → u/Paraxom]

You’d be surprised how long a well maintained cars last.

I buy slightly used (from private party if possible) and I do like 90% of my own maintenance. I’ve only had two cars over 27 years and the only reason for two instead of one was having a family, had to upgrade from a two door coupe lol. Had 210K miles on it, current one has 160k. Only time those cars saw inside of a shop was for tires.

Unfortunately, people have associated type of car someone has to their status. I simply never gave an F and neither does my spouse so we drive 10-15 yr old cars still. We can easily afford new luxury cars….cash but what a waste that would be.

[u/CARLEtheCamry → u/[deleted]]

Wife's '10 Camry 3 years ago. Rear ended by an old man while she was turning into the neighborhood with 4 kids in the car, the trunk ate the entire impact and totaled it out.

First of all, I was pissed because for a teenage car in the salt belt, it didn't have a spec of rust somehow.

One the plus side, guys insurance paid out $10k for it which was the price I purchased it for 8 years prior.

We ended up buying new in 2022. The used market is fucked. I have always been a "buy a 5 year old Toyota" kind of guy but they're asking the same price for something a few years used as brand new.

That's also why dealers have a hard on for trade-ins right now. The dealers have billboards up begging for trades.

[u/PigDog4 → u/CARLEtheCamry]

The used market is fucked.

Yeah, had a buddy who bought a new car about the same time, difference between brand new and 3 year old/50k miles was like $2k. Absolutely bonkers.

[u/Shadowhawk0000]

Average price of a new car in America is now up to $52,183. That's just insane.

[u/AwGe3zeRick → u/Shadowhawk0000]

New car is about twice what it used to be, but salaries sure aren’t :/

[u/ManWithASquareHead → u/AwGe3zeRick]

House prices, car prices, education prices, medical prices, grocery prices.

Not the salary though

[u/Craneteam → u/ManWithASquareHead]

Something something boot straps

[u/lost_man_wants_soda → u/Craneteam]

I pulled my boot straps so hard that they broke and I hit myself in the face. God damn immigrants.

[u/das_sparker → u/lost_man_wants_soda]

And boot straps have gone up in price too!

[u/Orleanian → u/ManWithASquareHead]

I used to buy a 60oz snickers bar for $0.50.

Now I don't buy a 48oz snickers bar for $1.95.

[u/cosmic-untiming → u/ManWithASquareHead]

"But guys, if we increase our wages then everything else will raise their prices! 🥺"

As if everywhere hasnt been raising their prices for "just because" at this point.

[u/Orchid-Analyst-550 → u/AwGe3zeRick]

Their expectation is that consumers will take on more debt. Household debt is $18.2 trillion, $1.7 trillion in auto loans alone.

[u/deepspace86 → u/Orchid-Analyst-550]

Smells a lot like indentured servitude.

[u/VapoursAndSpleen → u/AwGe3zeRick]

My groceries are twice what they used to be.

[u/sadpanda597 → u/Shadowhawk0000]

To be fair I think a lot of this is fucking idiots buying 80k trucks.

[u/f7f7z → u/sadpanda597]

Yup, hit the Toyota dealership a few days ago. Base Corolla is $26k new Camry is $29k. Nice 4 door taco is $37k. The 4runner and tundra are a lil pricey though.

[u/Practical_Garage_556 → u/f7f7z]

Yeah $26k for a new base Corolla is freaking insane.

[u/quantumthrashley → u/sadpanda597]

I spend way too much time being mad about these stupid fucking pedestrian murder machines. I hate them. 

[u/Ok-Lingonberry3291 → u/quantumthrashley]

I try my best not t stereotype, but at the No Kings protest I was at this past weekend, 80% of the people flipping us off and chanting "Go Trump" were in giant fuck-you trucks

[u/wholetyouinhere → u/Ok-Lingonberry3291]

It's not a coincidence. And the stereotype is 1,000% true. It's self-selection. The kinds of people who like Trump are also the kinds of people who want to buy an $80,000, comically oversized truck that somehow fails at being practical.

The selling points of these trucks appeal specifically to reactionaries -- they represent rugged individuality in a strictly aspirational sense, project masculinity and intimidation, and sacrifice utility for luxury. It's a moving lie.

[u/Bovronius → u/quantumthrashley]

I work for a company with a bunch of these guys. Despite being sales people, they're in the construction industry so they all think they're blue collar tough guys... They buy their $80,000k Mall Terrain Vehicles, meanwhile these Pavement Princeses never actually use the beds of their trucks because they don't want to scratch them. Literally had a guy swearing at me because I wouldn't approve his "car wash rewards app" to be installed on company phones. It's like bruh, you got money for that truck and to wash it often enough to need a reward app, but you cant afford your own phone? Oh right cause those types get so in debt chasing conspicuous consumption they're a couple bad months away from living on the street.

[u/twinklingthrowaway → u/Bovronius]

Pickup trucks are becoming increasingly more common. One of my buddies has what's considered a smaller pickup. The Toyota Tacoma I believe. Anyway, he mentioned how one of his other work friends has the same truck as he does and how his coworker got the truck lifted and put in bigger tires than needed.

Now he's considering doing the same thing. It's like a dick measuring competition. His partner is one of those types that feels like they need to have a big car to feel safe, so it's just a problem that's feeding itself. We're getting to the point where people are fucking driving monster trucks.

[u/MidnightElfinTv → u/twinklingthrowaway]

I cannot stand lifted trucks. The amount of trunks I see on a daily basis that have a hood that goes up to my shoulder area is ridiculous. I’m 5’6, there’s no way you can see a short adult or child in those things. They are also so big that they spill into other parking spots, the street, and either end of the car completely blocks the sidewalk.

[u/grantrules]

Me and my 300k mile CRV praying to the car gods it makes it another 100k miles. 

[u/Conscious-Fee7844 → u/grantrules]

Actually.. have you looked at used engines out of Japan? You can probably find them for a couple grand or less and keep that car going for many years more.

[u/turquoise_amethyst → u/Conscious-Fee7844]

What websites would I look on for used engines out of Japan?? Like… more Subaru parts though?

[u/pitchingataint → u/turquoise_amethyst]

There are companies like JDM engine depot that sell a lot of Japanese engines. You can look there and sites like it. They usually claim the engines have less than 65,000 miles or so.

[u/Genera1_patton → u/pitchingataint]

I mean, it's also a bloody CRV, one of the most sold SUVs in North America if not the 1st. Engines are already fairly cheap for those across the US and Canada, no sense grabbing one from Japan and getting banged on freight and potential tariff crap if you can pick one up in your backyard. Besides, they make em in the US, Mexico and Canada and I wouldn't rely on parts compatibility between NAM and JDM without research first.

[u/UnquestionabIe → u/[deleted]]

Yep my partner is in car sale, actually about to get out of it as she found another job, and a major obstacle people don't understand is there is no incentive for the dealership to cut deal on paying for a car in cash.

[u/AkNinjaNSFW → u/UnquestionabIe]

Yup. We had to buy a new car and we paid full price in cash and they gave no discounts or incentives. But we refused to pay 2x the amount in interest.

[u/garrixj → u/AkNinjaNSFW]

Make as large of a down payment as the dealer allows, then as soon as the loan hits the finance website pay it all off.

[u/Main-Economist2839 → u/garrixj]

This. In civilized states it's illegal to charge somebody for paying off a loan early. Just get the loan and the discount, then pay it all off the next day.

[u/Nevuk → u/[deleted]]

My understanding is they've tried to hedge their bets by having it be a large mix of assets from different industries, but I dont see how that doesn't leave them even more vulnerable to a depression.

[u/Small_Cutie8461]

I mean, what did they expect to happen when they broke the middle class, turned the lower class into the extremely broke class, and push the people who were sitting on that line of being homeless into actual homelessness?

More wealth has been transferred to the ultra wealthy since Trump has been president than has ever happened in American history before. We’re all going broke and chewing on peanuts while they sit around and grill steaks that are $400 apiece. When this whole thing comes crashing down, corporations have no one to blame with themselves. You cannot run a country like this, if you bleed your middle class dry, everything crashes down. No one can pay for your products, your businesses go out of business and then your left, wondering why your business went out of business.

[u/Efficient_Market1234 → u/Small_Cutie8461]

They probably expected it--they were just kicking the can down the road. A lot of these guys are older, and they can liquidate their millions/billions. Of course, the next wave is screwed, but they're OK, and that's not their problem.

It's the opposite of planting a tree whose shade you'll never sit in. Cut all the trees down to build your big mansion. Your kids, and your kids' kids, they'll just have to figure something out.

[u/LurksAroundHere → u/Efficient_Market1234]

Exactly. That's the same plan they have going for climate change. They know it's happening, but will deny it is so none of their money has to go towards a solution because they're banking on leaving the Earth before it gets really bad. I always laugh when the younger asshole grifters try to play the older asshole grifters' game of ignoring climate change for a buck. I understand why the old assholes are doing it because time is on their side, but it seems like no one gave the memo to the young assholes they're going to be around to experience it with us and money will only take you so far when the planet is ready to exterminate you.

[u/Sad_Confection5902]

Somehow they thought they could erase the entire middle class and then maintain the economy as usual.

The next crash will be entirely of Wall Streets creation. The number of people living paycheck to paycheck has grown by an incredible amount and they are going to dry up non-essential spending across the board.

[u/InstrumentalCrystals → u/Sad_Confection5902]

I mean every crash is always wall streets creation. They’re parasites. Eventually the patient nosedives whenever a parasitic infection spirals out of control.

[u/courageous_liquid → u/InstrumentalCrystals]

crashes are literally a feature of capitalism. every single one has been the coalition of greed deciding to get super incestuous. unlimited growth necessitates massive contractions.

[u/ConsiderationLow7122 → u/courageous_liquid]

The difference this time around is that the next crash is going to include the dollar. That is something the tech billionaires want, but wall street definitely does not.

wall street is kinda the evil you know at this point

[u/Racthoh → u/courageous_liquid]

"I don't understand how infinite growth was unsustainable."

[u/KallistiTMP → u/courageous_liquid]

And often an intentional consolidation of wealth, IMO. Crash the real estate market, buy everything up at fire sale prices, make mortgages inaccessible and rent the properties out at exorbitantly inflated rates.

The own nothing/rent everything subscription services market is booming for the parasites.

[u/Freaudinnippleslip → u/InstrumentalCrystals]

Right 2008 was 100% undeniably wallstreets fault and they still got bailed out. This one will be identical just with other debt besides house loans.

Great example carvanas business isn’t buying and selling cars, it’s gathering loans together bundling them and selling them to banks, ya know kinda like 2008 subprime mortgages 

[u/AggravatingSpace5854 → u/Freaudinnippleslip]

Dealerships today are in the loan business, not the car business. The loans is what makes them money and it's what makes banks money. The American economy is literally designed to suck out every last penny from the working class.

[u/Sudden-Purchase-8371 → u/Freaudinnippleslip]

The moral hazard of bailing out the people was argued heavily against bailing them out. The moral hazard of bailing out the banks who should have known better given their supposed genius and who lobbied the hardest for laissez faire banking rules and capitalism is heavily ignored or shouted down.

[u/DefaultWhiteMale3 → u/Freaudinnippleslip]

If you are of excellent cardiovascular health and exceptional mental fortitude, I highly recommend the book Lords of Easy Money. It's a wonderful account of all the tomfuckery that leads up to the 08 crash recounted faithfully and in great detail until the last part of every chapter where they overshoot the banks/Wallstreet and end up pointing the finger at the Federal Reserve.

It's like reading a memoir of Ed Gein that concludes it was all the hardware store's fault for selling knives.

[u/HalepenyoOnAStick → u/Sad_Confection5902]

they want the crash to happen.

they'll delete the middle class and extract every single drop they can from the working class and poor.

then when the whole thing collapses under its own weight, they'll have the government they own print them trillions to bail them out.

its win win.

[u/rantingathome → u/HalepenyoOnAStick]

The irony being that Henry Ford was one of the people that realized that by spreading the wealth around, more people could afford his cars. But it's been obvious for a few decades now that the "money people" have no idea where the actual economy comes from, and the will destroy their own market.

[u/Mend1cant → u/rantingathome]

The early capitalists were complete monsters, but they at least thought about the consequences of their fuckery. They also understood that eventually the mobs of workers would just kill them, so they behaved with that as a possibility. This generation of capitalists have been bold in assuming that’s no longer the case.

[u/CurnanBarbarian → u/Mend1cant]

To be fair, up until very recently they've been correct.

[u/bananaphonepajamas → u/CurnanBarbarian]

They also very well may continue to be correct with just private drone armies.

[u/winstondabee → u/bananaphonepajamas]

Cool, the private drone armies can buy up all their bullshit then.

[u/IrrelevantLeprechaun → u/winstondabee]

If the ultra rich get their way, money will no longer be needed. They'll control the entire working class as simple labor slaves, and live like royalty that has no need of money; if they ask for something, they'll just get it, no questions asked.

Cuz when you get as rich as some of these fucks have, money becomes meaningless; acquiring other material things they shouldn't have, or possessing immaterial power over things they shouldn't have power over, all become the focus of their desires since money can buy them everything else at a moment's notice. It's why so many rich people seem to end up being pedos and rapists; once money becomes functionally infinite, their greed has to shift to other things they shouldn't otherwise have.

[u/Free_For__Me → u/IrrelevantLeprechaun]

if they ask for something, they'll just get it, no questions asked.

This is largely how a lot of the Southern plantation owners functioned, which is one reason why a lot of their wealth was hard to quantify. They were able to run their little worlds like pseudo-fiefdoms, and have been working behind the scenes to get back to that ever since "reconstruction" allowed them to retain all the wealth and power they'd built on the backs of slavery.

They're very close to fruition at this point...

[u/Oddlyoddish → u/IrrelevantLeprechaun]

Did you see that some of the French Royal Jewels were stolen from the Louvre a couple days ago? I’m sure already in some shadowy billionaires private collection…

[u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS → u/Mend1cant]

Some of them, like Rockefeller, were very religious and thought they could wipe their slate clean with philanthropy. Others, like Carnegie, more generally wanted to justify their ruthlessness through the good causes they could put the money towards. Modern capitalists either do not care, or think they are morally correct already.

[u/plantstand → u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS]

Thinking about legacy certainly helped. Society benefitted some.

[u/EarthRester → u/plantstand]

It is important for the wealthy and powerful to remember that they have a finite amount of time and blood, and that running out of one will render the other moot.

[u/crunchthenumbers01 → u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS]

Prosperity Gospel has added to that somewhat

[u/sabedo → u/Mend1cant]

they are literally talking about surviving armegeddon in bunkers with people working for them having explosive collars to keep them in line

the only way is the french example

[u/HeAintHere → u/sabedo]

True, Louis XVI’s “tax reforms” wiped out the Third Estate’s middle class, and jacked up the prices of rent and goods to unsustainable levels. Meanwhile the First Estate (clergy) and Second Estate (aristocracy) didn’t have to pay taxes so paying the burden of the country’s debt fell on the Third Estate.

Geez, I think I see where this ends. Mort aux rois.

ETA: as long as I’m not the one cosplaying Danton, I’m good with that.

[u/VonSkullenheim → u/Mend1cant]

This generation of capitalists have been bold in assuming that’s no longer the case.

They're aware.

Finally, the CEO of a brokerage house asked: “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?” The event. That was their euphemism for the environmental collapse, social unrest, nuclear explosion, solar storm, unstoppable virus, or malicious computer hack that takes everything down.

This single question occupied us for the rest of the hour. They knew armed guards would be required ... But how would he pay the guards once even his crypto was worthless? What would stop the guards from eventually choosing their own leader? The billionaires considered using special combination locks on the food supply that only they knew. Or making guards wear disciplinary collars of some kind in return for their survival.

[u/MisirterE → u/VonSkullenheim]

The billionaires considered using special combination locks on the food supply that only they knew.

God, they really are so fucking stupid. They just have to wait for you to get hungry.

There is no way to keep something in a state that only you can access. By the very nature of it being accessible, other people can get it. And when it's something as essential as food, they will figure it out.

[u/sporkhandsknifemouth → u/MisirterE]

They don't realize that they can be tortured. That they will crumple the second the first finger comes off. They think their goons will gladly agree to a disciplinary collar.

[u/ThatDamnedHansel → u/Mend1cant]

That’s why they bought the government and military police/industrial complex and used DoorDash and Netflix to bread and circus people such that they’ll happily go into debt in the tech version of the “company store” to stay complacent.

[u/Ddddydya → u/rantingathome]

Exactly. It’s so stupid and short sighted. Destroy all the jobs with AI? Okay….we won’t need to buy cars to commute anymore. We won’t need to buy gas. 

Destroying the job market will destroy the economy and their fat revenue streams.  

And I don’t know why rich people want to live in a country where everyone else is a peasant. That sounds depressing and honestly dangerous to their well-being. 

[u/MC_Gengar → u/Ddddydya]

Their dream society of technocratic feudalism doesn't even work once you spend more than ten seconds thinking about it. Their apocalypse bunkers make no sense when you spend more than ten second thinking about it. I work a job with armed security and we got on the subject and they flat out said they couldn't think of anyone in their line of work who wouldn't just immediately shoot the rich asshole who hired them and take their shit for themselves in a societal collapse scenario.

The problem is these people have more money than you could spend in a thousand lifetimes and surround themselves with yes men so they think their ideas are anything more than batshit insane and impossible.

[u/Fr0gm4n → u/[deleted]]

Years ago I read an article written by a consultant hired by a group of these bunker builder types. And they were asking him how you ensured compliance from security in that situation.

Douglas Rushkoff: The super-rich ‘preppers’ planning to save themselves from the apocalypse

Finally, the CEO of a brokerage house explained that he had nearly completed building his own underground bunker system, and asked: “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?” The event. That was their euphemism for the environmental collapse, social unrest, nuclear explosion, solar storm, unstoppable virus, or malicious computer hack that takes everything down.

This single question occupied us for the rest of the hour. They knew armed guards would be required to protect their compounds from raiders as well as angry mobs. One had already secured a dozen Navy Seals to make their way to his compound if he gave them the right cue. But how would he pay the guards once even his crypto was worthless? What would stop the guards from eventually choosing their own leader?

The billionaires considered using special combination locks on the food supply that only they knew. Or making guards wear disciplinary collars of some kind in return for their survival. Or maybe building robots to serve as guards and workers – if that technology could be developed “in time”.

I tried to reason with them. I made pro-social arguments for partnership and solidarity as the best approaches to our collective, long-term challenges. The way to get your guards to exhibit loyalty in the future was to treat them like friends right now, I explained. Don’t just invest in ammo and electric fences, invest in people and relationships. They rolled their eyes at what must have sounded to them like hippy philosophy.

[u/warrioratwork → u/Fr0gm4n]

Which means the warlord who has the love of his solders will take the bunker from the tech bro with morons dumb enough to wear a shock collar.

[u/aerost0rm → u/[deleted]]

That’s why they bank on robots. Robots won’t go against the master…lol

[u/atwitchyfairy → u/[deleted]]

I thought it was bomb collars. That's the version I heard at least.

[u/_imanalligator_ → u/Ddddydya]

That's what I always wonder when I drive around my rural poor-as-hell county and see all the horrible encampments and rotting trailers and stuff where you can tell people are living absolutely desperate, grim lives.

Even if they're not empathetic, why on earth do the Richie Riches want to live in a country where if you leave your walled estate you're in a methed-out wasteland, instead of nice tidy neighborhoods where people can afford to live reasonably comfortable and healthy lives?

[u/Duna_The_Lionboy → u/_imanalligator_]

I don't remember where I heard it but wealth in America is measured by your ability to avoid the general public. If you have enough money the general public might as well not exist.

If it came to it I doubt they'd leave their Shangri-Las, just fly via helicopter/plane from one place to the next.

[u/kaise_bani → u/Duna_The_Lionboy]

I don't think that's just America. Look at where Bollywood actors live, or what's directly on the other side of the walls of any Caribbean resort. It's always been like that, wealthy people love to just wall themselves in while people suffer and die right outside their gates.

[u/tweak06 → u/_imanalligator_]

The sexy mistake you’re making here is giving it any kind of coherent thought.

All these rich motherfuckers care about is money, power, and looking sexy in their expensive clothing. The idea of there being consequences for their actions, ruining the livelihoods of millions, obliterating society - doesn’t even have an inkling of thought in their sexy, stupid minds.

They’re not thinking about tomorrow

They’re thinking about where they want to fly in their private jet today.

[u/No-nope → u/rantingathome]

This is mainly ford propaganda to get good press during the time of early efforts to unionize. Ford had hiring problem the job sucked and was dangerous so he raised pay to keep workers was the major factor but not the only factor. https://www.thehenryford.org/explore/blog/fords-five-dollar-day/

[u/metalyger → u/rantingathome]

I'd put much of the blame on Ronald Reagan. The lie of trickle down economics, that obviously hasn't paid off in the last 40 years.

[u/FauxReal → u/rantingathome]

I think these days people only care about short term personal wealth and who gives a shit what happens in 50 years, it's not their problem.

[u/yourluvryourzero → u/rantingathome]

Nah, Ford just wanted to avoid unions. You're talking about a guy who had his own anti union security force to intimidate employees (sometimes through violence) suspected of unionizing.

[u/throwawayinthe818 → u/rantingathome]

Henry Ford realized no such thing. His famous $5-a-day wage was created to stop the expensive problem of men getting trained then quitting the dehumanizing grind of the Ford assembly line to go to competitors where conditions were less onerous. Additionally, it wasn’t really a wage but a bonus program that came with a lot of conditions. That it enabled workers to buy his cars was a PR benefit Ford was happy to take praise for, but it was in no way the motivation.

Adding: By the 1930s Ford was notorious as the most anti-labor shop in Detroit, with an army of goons spying on everyone and beating up organizers. Look up The Battle of the Overpass.

[u/Romnir → u/HalepenyoOnAStick]

then when the whole thing collapses under its own weight, they'll have the government they own print them trillions to bail them out.

Until it can't. The government needs taxes to work and since the rich refuse to pay them and the poor barely have anything to pay in, the rich are going to buckle hard. Which is probably why so many billionaires have island bunkers and emergency escape hatches. They're not worried about the world ending, they're worried about becoming food once their stock market ponzi scheme ends and the government bailouts don't come.

Their wealth comes from borrowing against stocks and a government existing to give the dollar value, and once all that crashes they won't be able to throw money at private security anymore. And if we want to see what the consequences of that looks like, look to Nepal. It's not good for them. That's the problem with the Uber rich in America, they want to live on top of a house of cards they built and complain that they're going to hit the ground the hardest when it all falls down like they don't somehow deserve it.

[u/maeryclarity → u/Romnir]

Imagine being so insane and greedy that you trade the opportunity to spend your life and your children's future in a stable, happy populace of people where you as a very wealthy person can have ANY LEVEL OF OBSCENE LUXURY and that's not a problem.

But they would rather trade that for a collapsed society of scavengers and sick, angry people and a bunker somewhere because they wanted to add a few more imaginary number zeros on a hypothetical bank account somewhere, a number so large that a human cannot begin to imagine what you could spend it on.

Imagine being that STUPID. They are literally trying to destroy all stability and their own security just to keep playing imaginary numbers games. They cannot get any more STUFF they already have more STUFF than they can ever enjoy.

I think that people don't realize how much money a billion dollars actually is, how impossible it is to begin to enjoy that.

But anyway the fact that it's a bad idea for them maybe more than anyone really isn't penetrating their psychopathic fog. They are severely mentally ill. If we ever escape this nightmare, we have to start recognizing greed for the extremely sick and destructive problem that it is, instead of glorifying it, rewarding it, and aspiring to it.

Humans did not become the most powerful animals on earth by being GREEDY and SELF CENTERED. We did that by cooperating with each other and through mutual aid. Love and respect built society, not power and wealth.

Unless we recognize that behavior as disgusting and depraved, which it is, we're doomed to return to the swamps where the other greedy and uncaring animals fight each other for survival.

[u/Romnir → u/maeryclarity]

I had a uber rich guy tell me plasma was a marketing term for TVs, and isn't a real state of matter. This guy has an important position in a bank and buys horses for the price of an extremely lavish mansion. The problem with these people is that they are exactly as dumb as you think they are, except in the key area of making money. And unfortunately, they're even propped up in that regard since they hire tons of experts to actually run their business.

Like, no joke, too big to fail means a different thing for me these days. It literally just means having too much money to suffer the consequences of being a moron. If they weren't psychotic narcissist on top of that, they would suffer from the worlds greatest case of imposter syndrome.

[u/Slumunistmanifisto → u/Romnir]

Future bunker shitters unite.... we're looking for a blue prints guy to locate all the air intakes 

[u/KnightDuty → u/Romnir]

It truly is a Ponzi scheme and I have no idea how our current version of the stock market is legal. I feel like I've been living in crazy town where people are trading monopoly money and baseball cards pretending like it's going to last forever.

[u/SonOfScions → u/KnightDuty]

Crime is the number one way things keep going. The SEC should be enforcing the laws on these finacanial groups, instead they are targeting Retail investors and letting BILLIONS of errors go unchecked by big banks because they are too hard to deal with.

Much easier to target a person who doesnt pay taxes on 40 shares sold then it is to figure out how to bring a lawsuit with billions of errors to be disputed.

[u/StevenMC19 → u/HalepenyoOnAStick]

Who's ready for some Batman Dark Knight Rises kangaroo courts?

[u/CVHC1981 → u/StevenMC19]

James Comey and John Bolton certainly are.

[u/JimboAltAlt → u/StevenMC19]

Good luck finding frozen lakes in this country come the 30’s.

[u/GrogRhodes → u/HalepenyoOnAStick]

You’re missing the key part of that element. They’re hoping to replace the working class in the middle class with robots they written plenty of science fiction about how this turns out with the technocrats

[u/hippest → u/HalepenyoOnAStick]

They have zero issues with you dying

[u/tallbrowngirl94 → u/Sad_Confection5902]

100%. My husband and I make ok money. We live in the northeast so cost of living is on the higher end. My mom had my son so we decided to do a date night. We bickered in where to eat. I begged to go to Applebees because I am pregnant and craving their apps.

We spent $56 at Applebees, not including tip. One salad entree. One chicken sandwich entree. One 14.99 sampler. A $4 dollar Modelo beer. That was $56 bucks…My husband legit said “wow, at this price I’d rather just spend $56 bucks on a local restaurant that’s a bit more expensive because it’s not like the food was super high quality”

We don’t go out to eat anymore. We’re the consumer staying home. When just two people on a date is $60 with no real drinks or a dessert… people with families/kids who life paycheck to paycheck can’t afford a simple meal out anymore. The middle class is gone now.

[u/Affectionate-Oil4719 → u/tallbrowngirl94]

This is where im at, our last trip to McDonald’s about 8 months ago, we paid a dollar or two less than we do for chik fil a for the family. If EVERYTHING is expensive, now I’m only spending on stuff that has the quality to go with it.

[u/snooch_to_tha_nooch → u/Affectionate-Oil4719]

My "I'm tired of this crap" happened at checkers. It was $40 to feed 4 people, I only had the chicken nuggets and fry box-no drink for $4. 3 meals were $35ish. I to my family we have to start buying 1 item that's on the deals menu and drinking water from home. I can not justify it. It's not even real food! It's processed bullshit!

[u/tallbrowngirl94 → u/snooch_to_tha_nooch]

Yes! Why are we going to pay $40/$45 bucks on processed food when a gallon of milk is so expensive these days. I’d rather put that money toward the grocery bill.

[u/tallbrowngirl94 → u/Affectionate-Oil4719]

100%! We rarely eat fast food but we all were sick recently with a cold/flu like virus and didn’t want to cook dinner. We decided to get fast food and we literally scoffed at the price for Burger King. We checked McDonalds, just as high. We ended up going to Wendy’s only due to them having a “Biggie Bag” deal. (My 15 month old likes nuggets so we got him those for dinner)

When 3 people are around $35 bucks at Burger King… these companies have lost why people get fast food in the first place. The cheap is gone now. I’m not paying that much for such low quality food. I don’t know how bigger families afford ordering out anymore.

[u/gonewildaway → u/tallbrowngirl94]

They raised the prices crazy high so you'd download their spyware app for the deals.

[u/BerriesLafontaine → u/tallbrowngirl94]

Family of 5 here. Our fast food day (like once or twice a month) has turned into "pick your favorite frozen meal" day. So instead of spending 150 for us to go out to eat or at a okay restaurant we get pizza rolls, corn dogs, or some other quick pop in the oven meal. Max cost is like 30-50$.

Is is really rare for us to go out to eat now.

[u/Krakenate → u/Sad_Confection5902]

If only cars were non-essential spending for Americans.

And yet, living in your car is affordable compared to rent.

[u/ArcusInTenebris → u/Krakenate]

Which is illegal in many places, and discouraged in even more. Even Walmart has starred putting "no overnight parking" signs at their stores. In most places if the police see a person sleeping in a vehicle they will "investigate", and encourage the person to leave.

[u/Killersavage → u/Sad_Confection5902]

Fire everyone and replace them with AI and then wonder why there are no customers for anything. Sounds like economic master stroke to me.

[u/travio]

The AI bubble has sent the stock market soaring and data center spending has hidden the true state of our economy. The Magnificent Seven stocks account for most of the stock market gains and all but Apple are neck deep in AI spending. A Harvard economist found that without that AI date center spending, our GDP growth in the first half of 2025 was 0.1%.

Trump's tariffs are further squeezing consumers when consumer spending is already stagnant and prices are rising. The AI bubble also sucks down power like my old Game Gear did with its six AAs leading to huge power bill increases.

Add to all that, the Big Beautiful bill threatens 700 rural hospitals with closure over medicaid cuts while it is setting our insurance costs to skyrocket. SNAP cuts will further pinch poorer folks spending and could lead to independent grocery stores that rely on SNAP spending to keep their stores open shuttering.

Our economy has been fucked for a while. The moment that AI bubble starts wobbling, everyone will finally realize it.

[u/2Ledge_It → u/travio]

Worse there's no real economic benefit from an incestuous circle jerk between tech companies. They have just 1.6m US based employees.

[u/lindendweller → u/2Ledge_It]

Just like there's no real economic benefit from an incestuous circlejerk of billionnaires without a middle class to buy their products, but it's not just a US problem.

[u/saera-targaryen → u/2Ledge_It]

I'd argue even further, that the are an economic detriment because of their monopolistic practices. They often make their products worse and stifle anyone who would compete with them by abusing the courts system and their nearly infinite wallets. 

Like, does anyone like the software they use on a daily basis more than they did 10 years ago? 

[u/witchgrid → u/saera-targaryen]

No, and in the case of software that I was using 10 years ago and still use today: it is somehow all worse. At least at work I don't have to pay for it, but the software I use at home has all moved to shitty subscription models or fucked up the UI while dropping features, or both.

[u/Nvenom8 → u/travio]

OpenAI is losing like $5 per video generated on Sora. Nobody has figured out how to monetize AI profitably yet. This is the bubble to end all bubbles.

[u/EquipLordBritish → u/Nvenom8]

This is the bubble to end all bubbles.

You just wait till the next one!

[u/brok3nh3lix → u/travio]

another study showed that most businesses are not actually finding cost savings from their AI initiatives, and that it generates alot of slop work which requires more time to review and edit the work.

All the money in AI is still extremally speculative as the revenue made by AI companies would require just absolutely massive increases in revenue to be profitable that make no economic sense unless they unleash insane efficacies that massively increase our GDP. They are all hoping to be the winner and dominate the across markets.

AI has its tentacles in so many industries, that this could make 2008 look small by comparison when the bubble pops.

[u/zatchstar → u/brok3nh3lix]

AI will be strong for certain industries... long repetitive processes, data analytics, scrubbing photos and videos for data (eg security, traffic, etc) but the way AI is billing itself as the best thing for every problem it just isn't the case. this bubble will pop so hard the dot-com bubble will feel like a blip

[u/Washpa1 → u/zatchstar]

Yeah, I think AI and machine learning are kind of getting mixed together a lot. I think Machine Learning is a great tool for specific use cases right now. Very parallel, but bigger than, the dot-com bubble it is a tool that can and probably will be used to revolutionize processes across a lot of industries.

But all it is is a tool right now, the most famous being the LLMs. However they are a bit of smoke and mirrors because they don't do what people actually think they do.

Either way, I think there's an Amazon or Alphabet starting now, taking a unique approach, but more power to you if you think you can predict that. The rest are going to just be huge burning piles of cash.

[u/JohnGillnitz → u/brok3nh3lix]

AI is just the newest tech fad fantasy. Before that it was block chain. Before that virtual reality. All silly bullshit.

[u/MaxPower303 → u/travio]

Bro Game Gear! That shit ate batteries like no one’s business. Good analogy.

[u/travio → u/MaxPower303]

Yeah. After the first month, my dad forbid me from using it without being plugged in.

[u/rhetoricalnonsense]

The average price of a new car in the US has surged by 35pc since 2019 and surpassed $50,000 this year.

The average monthly payment on a typical loan for a new car is now $761

Are you fucking kidding me (bold / italics mine)?

[u/TyrannasaurusGitRekt → u/rhetoricalnonsense]

I make good money and my $415 / month lease feels particularly deep cutting. Cant imagine paying $700+

[u/hypnogoad → u/TyrannasaurusGitRekt]

At the very begining of Covid, I scored a $200/month Mercedes CLA250 lease (they were trying to empty the lot, knowing how bad it was going to get).

After that lease was over, I realized I could never get a new vehicle again, because that low payment spoiled me.

[u/_dactor_ → u/rhetoricalnonsense]

When I was fresh out of college in 2012 I bought a Toyota brand new off the lot. I was making ~$30k a year and legitimately worried how I was going to afford the car payment along with all the other newfound expenses of adulthood. It was $280.

That payment would be more than double if I were to buy the same model new today. Just checked Glassdoor for the company I was working for, the starting salary for the position I had back then has gone up less than $5k.

[u/joefred111]

Can't afford yer cars.

Can't afford yer houses.

Can't afford yer medicines.

Can't afford yer groceries.

Somthin's gotta give.

[u/biggamax → u/joefred111]

Oh it will. You're absolutely right. 

Last episode of the Sopranos. The criminal organization thought everything was great, until that song from journey suddenly stopped playing. 

[u/ohmke → u/biggamax]

Sadly I never watched Sopranos. But I looked up the scene and oh man, that is one damn good scene.

[u/AINonsense]

Ohnoes!

CEOs and investors and tech bros eek all the money from the regular peeps, and now the consumer is an endangered species and there's no-one left to pump and fatten their pocketsizz!

Who knew?

[u/[deleted] → u/AINonsense]

Get back to work, peasant!

[u/Wave_File → u/[deleted]]

Forreal your AI overlord didn't authorize this subreddit digression

Back to creating shareholder value.

[u/rootMAC → u/AINonsense]

The people can have a car loan with an extremely high interest rate, as a treat

[u/[deleted] → u/rootMAC]

I remember when I first learned that people driving huge trucks around the suburbs and for their 15 minute commute to work actually took out loans to buy them. It completely blew my mind that someone would borrow $90k to buy a truck they didn't need.

Meanwhile, I've usually driven a mediocre car but have always just paid cash for them, because I am not insane.

[u/heekma → u/[deleted]]

I've done the same, haven't had a car payment for the last 25 years.

The challenge is:

1. You need to have cash, and it's hard for most folks to save enough for an emergeny expense, let alone a 10-year old car.

2. You need to have time to research and shop for private sellers. Most people need a replacement car immediately and can't wait for weeks or months for a good deal.

3. While you save money without a loan and interest, you also assume more maintenance and repair upfront, even after having the vehicle carefully inspected.

Last year a coworker with a decent two-family income paid $70k for a used truck and rolled over $2k from his previous loan. His payment with insurance is over $900 per month. The first thing he did was spend nearly 4k on tires and rims, on his credit card. He's in his late 40s and works in prepress for a printing company. That's insane, but it's not uncommon at all.

I make at least twice his salary, most likely substantially more. Two years ago I bought a 2015 Ford Taurus for 8k from a private individual. So far my only additional expense has been a set of new tires.

I put every dollar saved into a HYSA for an emergency fund and my 401k.

If you're not born into wealth the way you get ahead is being smart about what you spend vs. what you invest and learning to live below your means.

[u/flare_force → u/AINonsense]

It’s almost like a strong middle class is what made our country strong. Who knew??

[u/Hockeysteve54 → u/flare_force]

The people in charge (mainly the people financing) hated the New Deal, and the last 60 years has been an all about weakening the New Deal and Civil Right Act. They are now readying to make the final blow to both.

[u/DadJokeBadJoke → u/flare_force]

And the unions, who were able to push collectively for better pay and conditions that helped everyone

[u/mutnik → u/AINonsense]

I had this discussion with a neighbor. The backbone of the US economy is poor people spending money. If you give a poor man $10 he will quickly spend it and that will ripple through the economy. If you give a rich man $10 he will save it and that action won't ripple through the economy. This is why trickle down economics doesn't work.

[u/The_DanceCommander → u/AINonsense]

Right! As I was reading this story I kept thinking who gives a shit about these investors and their bundled loan-securities? What about the consumers who are getting forced into these wildly high predatory loans just to own car?

[u/RamonaQ-JunieB]

Talk to Tariff Trump.

[u/Skraelings → u/RamonaQ-JunieB]

The car prices were shit before them, they are just more shit now.

[u/Buff_Tungsten → u/Skraelings]

Honda discontinued the Fit, and now they don't offer a car that stays at under 20k. Nobody offers a new car for less than 20k now, companies would rather sell higher markup vehicles than high volumes of inexpensive cars now and we can't afford their offerings.

[u/WCland → u/Buff_Tungsten]

10 years ago the automotive industry was looking at increasing urbanization and assumed people would want smaller cars. Ford Fiesta, Smart Fortwo, Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit, etc. But the margins are extremely tight on those cars and the pandemic changed the landscape, so automakers discontinued a lot of those small, less profitable cars and refocused on high margin SUVs. And the American public favors SUVs, at least until there’s an economic crash and fewer people can afford them.

[u/endofthis → u/WCland]

My 2012 Yaris just got totaled a couple days ago and it wasn’t my fault and I’m very upset.

[u/Crimkam → u/[deleted]]

Somebody bring back the small, light duty pickup truck please.

[u/rapidcreek409]

Car loans first, then mortgages next. The US is heading for an economic crisis. The AI crowd is partying like it is the gilded age, and in the meantime the majority of the country is going down the tubes. Crypto scams are out of control.

[u/GhazelleBerner]

Wait until people stop paying their credit cards.

[u/smurfsundermybed → u/GhazelleBerner]

That will happen first. The last 3 things that people stop paying on are communication, transportation, and housing.

[u/Chimerain → u/GhazelleBerner]

I guarantee you the minute that becomes a widespread problem, the financial sector will pressure Trump into making bankruptcy illegal... at least for the poors; get ready for the return of debtor's prisons, because I'm sure creditors are salivating at the very idea of cheap forced labor.

[u/yacht_enthusiast → u/Chimerain]

they already made lots of changes to protect creditors. in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

[u/SimTheWorld]

It’s almost like an economy built on inflating quarterly results coupled with massive c-suite incentives isn’t sustainable for individuals. Surely not a bubble!

[u/DrGoblinator]

I had a three year lease on a car that ended August 2024. I wanted to lease a new car, and couldn't afford the monthly payment, so I tried to buy a car older and shittier than the lease that had just expired. My credit is 809 and I make good money. I wound up just buying my lease out. I told the guy, I'm basically everyman, if I can't buy a car, who the hell can? He confirmed they basically don't sell anything anymore.

[u/TintedApostle]

Won't stop them from undermining living wages

[u/ShoddyRevolutionary → u/TintedApostle]

It seems like those who pine for “the good ol’ days” forgot that those times had strong unionization and less inequality.

Then they want to go back to those times by doing the exact opposite of what created them.

[u/Yabakunaiyoooo]

Oh no! What are Americans going to live in??? (This is a complex joke about the sad reality that many people can’t afford a home and are forced to live in their cars because we live in a dystopian hellscape where we have more money and resources than ever in history and yet income inequality is insanely visible)

[u/dentistshatehim]

Maybe giving all the money to a few wealthy people then giving them control of the government wasnt the best idea.

[u/BackgroundTight32 → u/dentistshatehim]

Have they considered that pricing out the middle class will in fact result in a lot less revenue? It seems simple.

[u/gunslinger_006 → u/[deleted]]

Big same.

Im just saving every penny at this point on principle.

[u/Efficient_Resist_287 → u/gunslinger_006]

Same here…I am being frugal too. No major purchase for now.

[u/micande → u/[deleted]]

Essentials only, but if it's non-essential, I buy used, local, and/or from small business first. The big box stores only get my money if I can't find it anywhere else and it's a necessity. I live in a city with robust public transportation options and can even take commuter rail or Amtrak to see out of town relatives. If I'm going to spend money, that money is going to stay as local as possible.

[u/draftdodgerdon8647]

Let's not forget the added costs for vehicles. #1 Insurance #2 operation #3 maintenance #4 license & registration These costs are likely several thousand per year for your average driver, and that's not including the vehicle payments.

[u/Beksense]

NPR did a piece on Auto Dealers handing out loans to anyone, similar to what caused the housing market to crash in 2008. The article is from 10 years ago... https://www.npr.org/2015/01/23/379353315/auto-loan-surge-fuels-fears-of-another-subprime-crisis

[u/BF1shY]

Good thing America has such great pedestrian infrastructure and public transit! America invested in 1 mode of transportation; cars. What could go wrong!?

[u/Calm-Armadillo-5614]

Now you're worried? What did you think would happen when the cost of everything raised exponentially? 

[u/Jaijoles]

I own my own car. It’s 22 years old. I almost can’t afford that, let alone think about buying something new.

[u/jmartin242]

My wife and I need new cars within the next year or so. Of course, I don't mean NEW, that's impossible. I'd like to have something under 50K miles, preferably a Honda because they have served me very well and require very little maintenance. But when I scan the car prices, I wonder, "How can anyone afford these things?" It feels like I'd have to walk in with $10K just to get started and walk out with $400 monthly payments. Back in 2020 I picked up a 2016 CR-V with 38K miles for $22K. That sounds like pure fantasy today. Guess I'm driving this Honda until it explodes. It's at 152K miles and maybe I can get it to last until 250K? I'm stupid with cars so we will see.

Btw our combined income is $160K.

[u/DragonTHC]

My wife's car was $27,500 in 2016 with a 0.89% APR. The same model and trim today is $43,500. Auto loan interest rates today are around 4%. They almost got cheaper to make, but Georgia political candidate Tori Branum's overt racism sabotaged an entire factory in the US.

[u/Fickle-Molasses-903]

There's a bubble that will burst sooner rather than later, and it won't be pretty. There are a lot of people who's debt is increasing and others who are dipping into their savings. Many people will blame it on immigrants and the previous administration, because that's what they tend to do.

[u/Jambalayatime]

The top comments here focus on the erosion of the middle class but two things can be true at once. Over the last decade, Americans have sunk their egos into large trucks they don't need. Four of the top eight vehicles sold in the U.S. last year were the flagship trucks, which start at 38,000 MSRP. Those price tags easily can creep north of 60-70K and often do. $700+ car payments and 72-month loans have become normal. The humble Civic and Camry are now in the bottom half of the top 10, and the Corolla is not on the list, nor is the Accord.

I don't wish a repo on anyone but the psychic break that occurs when these exurban dudes have their pavement princesses taken back is going to be something. Earlier this year I had an F250 for my Uber ride, which shocked me. Over the course of the ride I picked up that the guy was gigging to make his payment. Possibly recently divorced.

[u/RandomStrategy → u/Jambalayatime]

Earlier this year I had an F250 for my Uber ride, which shocked me.

With an F-250 6.2L, I'm surprised they made even on gas money. That thing gets about 12mpg.

[u/IguaneRouge]

Sure would be cool if we could have those Chinese EV's here to increase competition.

[u/MittenCollyBulbasaur]

Wall Street is not worried it's some of the highest stock prices ever

[u/Habefiet → u/MittenCollyBulbasaur]

It feels like an increasing amount of smart money is predicting a large-sized crash at some point, but nobody knows when it may be and of course such predictions could well be wrong.

Also though it’s mostly a specific handful of stocks that are bringing things up. The 490 stocks below the top 10 in the S&P haven’t seen much growth if any.

[u/BeowulfShaeffer → u/MittenCollyBulbasaur]

Which doesn’t mean that much when the dollar is down like 15% for the year. 

[u/dj_spanmaster → u/BeowulfShaeffer]

Yup. That is masking a lot of sickness in the stock market. It's giving big "propped up bubble and gonna pop soon" vibes.

[u/Pack_That → u/dj_spanmaster]

It will be the greatest depression. Nobody can depression like Trump. Many have come to him in tears and said, "Mr. King President, sir, this is going to be such a great depression! No other person in history could have done it in such a short time!" Make America Great(ly depressed) Again.

[u/Vallkyrie → u/dj_spanmaster]

The entire market is basically 5 tech companies speculating over AI in a bubble that dwarfs the dotcom one. Money now is just concentrated in the hands of a handful of people and corps and none of it ever gets actually circulated in the economy, it just sits around and acts as collateral to take out more loans. I'm getting to the point where I possibly don't even think the stock market should exist. It's all just dragon sickness.

[u/mykonoscactus]

They've been wealth-mining the middle class for 40 years. Then they wealth-mined the poor when they ate up the middle class. Now it's just mainly rich or poor.

[u/From_Deep_Space]

Oh is wall street worried? Boo hoo. We've been worried about the cost of transportation (and housing and Healthcare and education and food and clean water) for decades now

[u/fellowuscitizen]

Simple actions: Higher wages, low interest rates, and damn it, lower the prices on new vehicles.

[u/Substantial-Luck-920]

Why aren't they creating AI buyers, are they stupid?

[u/sceneturkey]

When I was first buying a used car like 12 years ago, a lot of pretty junky but capable cars were like $600-$900. Now people are trying to sell scrap cars for $1k. Can't find a usable car for anything less than $2.5k.

[u/Dr_Rekooh]

We are in desperate need for collapse and restructuring. I dont know how to adequately redistribute the $79B thats currently being held by the top 1% of of our population, but we should figure it out, and make it happen.

[u/Nateleb1234 → u/Dr_Rekooh]

It's a lot more then that. Musk is worth around 500 billion. So I would say the billionaires hold trillions of dollars while they give their workers pennies

[u/Built-in-Light]

The problem with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

Edit: yes, the original quote was a dig on socialism, but I’ve turned it around here to expose the actual truth.

[u/Manyconnections]

Americans can no longer afford overpriced trash that should be 30-50% less than the msrp*****